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Biphobia, queerness, privilege...AITA?

CW: Biphobia, potential NB-phobia, swearing
I'm biphobic and I don't know how to shake it. I'm trying to find books, articles, video essays, anything to help me work through this but I can't find anyone trying to engage with these points seriously. I know they're super painful and uncomfortable for many queer people in the same way that talking about non-binary identities and trying to "defend them logically" with cishets is asking for some super painful and uncomfortable questions that we might not even have good answers to, but I genuinely want to do better and I think the only way to do that is for me to ask these questions and engage with them...I know how that sounds and all the dogwhistles it sets off but I promise I'm being legit.
so, I'm an AMAB Gay Man(?...still up to debate on that last one) and, like a lot of queer folk, I've got some history with bisexual people.
So...of course, cis bisexual people are oppressed from both the Oppressive Systems and the LGBT+ community. They're too gay for the straights and too straight for the gays basically. It's not a great position to be in - I sympathize with that. However....and I know I'm about to fall into a fallacy of anecdotal evidence but...every single cis bisexual man I've ever known (and many bisexual women, but I know a number of women who do not fit this) has said to me "I could never be in a serious relationship with a man." When I've asked them to extrapolate, I hear "I could never tell my family about it, and so therefore I could never bring a man home, and therefore I could never be in a serious relationship with a man." Whenever I hear this, my gut reaction is to say that therefore they do not suffer from the same kinds of oppression that other queer people without a choice have to face. Every queer person has had to deal with the consequences of telling their family that they are queer. If you have the privilege to choose not to do that, then you're not in the same group here. You're just not. You didn't have to hear your parents crying and sobbing like maniacs because they feel like they've failed for having A Gay. You didn't have to field all the strange and uncomfortable prying questions about your sex life from your goddamn grandmother. You never faced the harsh reality of being kicked out because your family's ideology means more to them than you. And why? Because you can choose to avoid it and still live happily doing so. You do not and will never know the pain of having to choose between someone you love and societal acceptance because you have an option that doesn't betray your inner sense of self AND is in accordance with societal norms.
This is not to say that cis bisexual people who HAVE told their families and have brought a same-sex/NB partner home fall into this same category. On the contrary - if you've had to deal with that crap, in my book (whatever lack of weight that carries), you're as queer as the rest of us and I have 0 problem with them being in queer spaces. My problem is when people who have benefited from oppressive systems of heteronormativity, who choose to continually benefit from those systems to avoid dealing with the struggle of every queer person, enter queer spaces and tout themselves as just as queer and oppressed [EDIT: should read "just as queer and oppressed in the same ways"] as the rest of us. I asked about this in a far less informed and much more inflammatory way on FB and got rightfully dogpiled and since then I've been trying to do as much reading on the subject as I can but nothing I've found addresses this point in a satisfactory way. I figured coming here was a good idea? I literally made this account to ask this question "anonymously" in a queer space, I've never used Reddit before except to read RPDR spoilers (i'm basic I know), but anyway please let me know if y'all have anything for me to read/watch/listen to I'm genuinely interested in learning!

EDIT: So, I've been doing some more thinking/reading, and I realized now that my point might be construed as me trying to exclude cis bi people from queer spaces which is NOT my goal. Also to clarify, my ire isn't towards cis bi people in straight passing relationships. My issue is with cis bi people who are either in a straight passing relationship and/or single who are only willing to engage with the community on a superficial (sexual) level but when it comes to considering queer people as human beings - someone you'd want to spend your life with, someone you'd bring home to your family - it's another story. This bothers me deeply because of the long history of queer people being relegated to the shadows for "sexual deviancy", being used for sexual gratification the whole time, and then being burnt at the stake for it the next day by the very people who used you for gratification. One of the Hungarian politicians who voted to outlaw Trans identities was just "exposed" for having a trans woman as a mistress. If he were to come into a queer space and start talking about his experiences as a queer person I'd chase him tf out. Similarly, if a cis bi person says "I could never be in a serious queer relationship," I read that as internalized homophobia that I want to educate away. Personally, it touches on a raw nerve because of men I've been involved with who, when given a chance to choose between societal acceptance and a meaningful queer relationship, chose the former. It made me feel used. I felt like I was a fuckhole that was easily discarded. It felt like three months of my life, a relationship in which we shared some really personal things, had some really beautiful moments - just thrown away because it would mean having to deal with what every other queer person has no choice but to deal with - coming out. This is not to imply in ANY way that closeted queer people are not queer. They are. Nor is it saying that only engaging with the queer community for the purposes of having queer sex is not a valid queer experience. It is. The difference is that those are the exceptions - not the rule. For those people to enter queer spaces and speak on queer experiences [EDIT: should read "and speak on queer experiences to which they cannot relate"] as someone who actively benefits from oppressive heteronormativity is just...I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. If I heard the "I'd only date straight because I don't want to come out to my family" thing or a variant thereof from a cis bi person, my gut reaction was stated above. My next move would be to try to educate them on why that is an expression of internalized homophobia and how it is harmful to the whole queer community. If they doubled down, then I'd get a little "GTFO BOOTLICKER" action and probably have to write an apology email but I'd stand by excluding that kind of attitude from queer spaces.

SECOND EDIT: So I realize my point about coming out of the closet was poorly made and even more poorly worded so hopefully I can do better this time -
When I said "Every queer person has had to deal with the consequences of [coming out to their family]" and then continued with a worst-case scenario of that, I failed to say that the severity of those "consequences" does not, imo, bear any weight on the validity of one's queerness or queer experiences or "claim to oppression" (which, I agree is silly to think of as a zero-sum game but I realize now I didn't make that clear). What I meant to say is that every queer person has had to contend with the question of "societal acceptance" (which often implies familial acceptance) VS "inner sense of self." Many cis-bisexual people who are currently in the closet and/or in a het-passing relationship have to contend with that question, I'm not trying to question their queerness in any way and I'm extremely sorry for being vague about that and for any hurt that caused any person reading this. When I meet a cis-bi person who actively thinks/says "I would never date queer, but I'm happy to fuck queer", I want to know how I should interact with/interpret that. Is it malicious? Internalized homophobia? A symptom of being closeted that sometimes has adverse effects on queer people around them? All of the above? Some? None? Again, it just makes me feel icky because of the long history of queer people being pushed into the shadows, used for sex, and then turned on by the very people who used them for sex the next day...I hope this was clearer!
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[Table] IAmA: IAm the Editor in Chief at Rotten Tomatoes. AMA

Verified? (This bot cannot verify AMAs just yet)
Date: 2012-09-05
Link to submission (Has self-text)
Link to my post
Questions Answers
How do you think some of the most terrible movies actually make it to the big screen? I would assume at some point SOMEONE read the scripts and thought, "Wow, that's awful." Funny you should say that... we interviewed Jason Statham, and some thing came up about some movies of his that weren't well received, and he said that you don't think you're making a bad movie when you're in the middle of shooting. Cut to three months later, I'm interviewing Rosario Dawson, and she's joking about some of her Tomatometer scores, and I tell her what Statham said about not thinking a movie is going to be bad, and she says "Oh no, I knew that Pluto Nash would be bad" But she said she couldn't turn down the opportunity to work with Eddie Murphy.
Aha! Great to see you here, I'm a producer on a Documentary called Beijing Punk that's somehow been listed incorrectly on your site, the descriptive text and cast info on Rotten Tomatoes is from another film called Beijing Bubbles. I've tried raising trouble tickets and emailing to get it fixed but nothing's been done for months so I figured what the hell and thought I'd ask here :) Also we received a glowing review from the Huffington post but the Rotten Tomatoes page hasn't picked it up. How do we connect the two? And to ask a general question to be on topic, how hard is it for independent filmmakers to get their film listed on your site? Do they have any control over the information presented or is it gleaned from sources automatically such as the IMDB? Hey, hit me on Twitter @matchity, and I can help you out.
Any chance of getting rid of this popup? Or maybe just stop showing it after we have seen it 100 times? For what it's worth, I don't like that pop-up either.
Given how influential your site is, do you ever get pressure from studios to try and fudge the system to move an expensive stinker from rotten to fresh? If so, how do you respond? We'll get a bunch of links to reviews from critics or sites that don't meet our qualifications.
We'll get asked to change a rotten review to a fresh one, because the review is neutral.
In the case of #1, we'll just say that the reviews don't qualify. In the case of #2, we'll ask the critic if we've scored it right. If they tell us to change it, we will, but we have to hear it from the critics.
Going off the end of that, do you feel the critic's recommendation for each film is a good idea, rather than going strictly off the numbers? A 2.5/4 rating isn't necessarily "rotten" or "fresh", yet it goes either way. On top of that, I recently saw on early reviews of The Master, Richard Corliss' rating is a 7/10, and remains the only "rotten" rating (at this time). Do you fee one way is better than the other? 2.5/4 may mean fresh to some reviewers and rotten to others. Our hope is that people are actually clicking through to read reviews, rather than basing their entire decision about the score.
We've thought about the possibility of changing things up, but in all honesty, keeping the system mostly simple is probably going to be our best bet. It allows for a level of transparency that we like, where as averaging out scores adds in a lot more subjectivity and reinterpretation than I think we're comfortable with.
Why isn't Taken 100%? Because we didn't get a threatening call from Liam Neeson yet.
What rating have you disagreed with the most? What has been your biggest surprise? I hated The Tree of Life, but most of the critics loved it, so maybe I was missing something.
And I was pleasantly surprised to see Fast Five get a fresh rating, but I love those movies anyway. I was kinda surprised to see Expendables 2 end up as fresh.
Speaking of Terrence Malick have you seen his new film To the Wonder and if so what do you think of it? Haven't seen it yet.
Have you seen Crank 2: High Voltage? I love the Crank movies. Totally trashy, totally awesome.
What are your Five Favorite Films? I'm a big fan of Rotten Tomatoes. Thanks for doing this AMA! We put our own five faves on the back of our business cards
I'm a long-time metacritic user. How would you convince me that Rotten Tomatoes is better? I prefer metacritic because they use numerical scores (which allows greater accuracy than a simple rotten or fresh), among other reasons. I think we have a broader pool, and a more democratic system, but I think Metacritic does a fine job doing what they do.
But if you like them better, then hey, that's like, your opinion man.
Any thoughts on Metacritic? I think they're good at what they do, but I think our site is more fun. But obviously I'm biased.
I think a weighted average like theirs potentially opens the door to a lot of subjectivity on behalf of the aggregators, but we get similar criticism about how we handle neutral reviews.
Ultimately, we're both assigning numerical values to subjective analyses, so users have to pick which version of that they like more.
How does someone become a "Top Critic"? Do you feel the ratings system is weighed fairly? The criteria for being a Top Critic are here. In a nutshell, we're looking for the people or sources that have the largest reach of the best writing.
We do try and make the system fair, in that it basically boils down to one critic - one vote.
"Print publications must achieve and maintain status as one of the following: - A top 100 daily US newspaper - A top 100 weekly US newspaper" What will you do when there are no more newspapers? Not sure yet. Honestly, that's something I really worry about.
Tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Botanists say fruit, government says vegetable, I think.
Whats your favorite guilty pleasure movie? Probably The Fifth Element. It's kind of a mess, but I love it.
My question is how can you hope to control this, if at all on your website? Obviously when it got to death threats it was necessary not to allow commenting on the thread anymore, but there seems to be the amazing split with RT commenters where one person will trash the reviewer and the person directly below will say "hey we're allowed our opinions". Which side do you fall on, and how to you hope to gain traction with your users, if at all when it gets ugly? Ultimately, we're going to change how our comment threads are set up so that there isn't a thread for each review, and I think that will help a bit. But we're a pretty big platform, and once you hit a certain traffic level, the trolls definitely come out.
The Godfather Part II shows 2 rotten reviews, but when I try to read them, only one critic is shown. What did you do to the other guy? Ask Luca Brasi.
How do you determine whether a critique is Rotten or Fresh if the general tone of the article seems to be neutral? In many cases, the critic submits the review with their own rating. But when we pick up the review, sometimes everyone in the office will read it, and if we really can't agree on a rating, we'll ask the critic. But if something's truly neutral, we'll usually mark it fresh; the phrase we use in the office in that case is "tie goes to the runner"
I'm sure you remember the ordeal with internet users flooding message boards of movie critics who gave The Dark Knight Rises a negative review, but there was one article in particular that I read who admitted that he hadn't seen the film yet. How can you add to/take away from a movie's tomato score based on someone who hasn't seen the film's opinion? In that case, we took the link down to that review as soon as we saw it.
How many miles do you recommend between tire rotations? About 5,000 miles, depending on how you drive.
Will the Rotten Tomatoes Show ever come back? And what's your personal opinion regarding the scores? Would you see any "fresh" movie as a movie one should go watch? I personally like the seperation into fresh and rotten because oftentimes it's just too much about critics ratings. That incarnation of the show if over, but we're trying to cook up some other things. And I'm trying to get Brett and Ellen to come on the Rotten Tomatoes Radio show; I see Brett every week at Current, when I'm shooting What the Flick.
Regarding scores, I think they can be a good tool in the decision making process if you're on the fence about seeing a movie. But if you're dying to see a particular movie, then go see it; it's ok to see (and like) a movie that the critics don't like.
Except Twilight. Those movies are terrible.
Obligatory. Bone...
If I may, what are some of the ideas on this "to do" list? #1 and #2 are "Don't talk about the 'to do' list"
I had a feeling you'd make movie references. We can't have any conversations in the office without some quote from something.
Editor in Chief of an influential website like this.. should be at least..150k right? I'm sending this recommendation to my boss.
How does the FlixsteTWX ownership structure work? Do you get Time Warner stock? How much editorial freedom do you have, and are there any guarantees? Theoretically you could get a call from your boss's boss's boss's boss telling you to find a way to give the latest Warner Bros. film a push over that line from rotten to fresh or else he'll fire you and find someone who will--right? No stock, but total freedom to write and cover what we want.
If I'd had any doubts about that, they were erased the week Dark Knight Rises opened. No one at WB gave me any direction on how to handle the commenter issues, or what to do when the incident in Aurora happened. After that week, we got some feedback from corporate PR that they thought we handled everything well, but at no point did they ask us to do anything differently.
We never heard anything like that while we were part of News Corp, either.
Texting in theaters - what should we do here? I could go on a huge rant here (I just did on last week's Rotten Tomatoes Radio show), but I'll just say that I don't think there's any justification for texting in theater full of people. You're either too dumb to realize you're distracting others that paid to see the movie, or you just don't care. Take your pick.
What actor do you dislike the most, out of everyone you can think of? There are some people I'd like to see do better movies, like Adam Sandler, but Happy Gilmore and Billy Madison still make me laugh. But there's no one I really hate; I save my hate for people I know personally.
What is the highest rated movie on Rotten Tomatoes? Lowest? Best reviewed movie of all time is Toy Story 2 - 100% with 161 reviews.
Worst ever is Ballistic: Ecks vs Sever - 0% with 108 reviews.
Worst ever is Ballistic: Ecks vs Sever - 0% with 108 reviews. Already added to my downloads list. There's more where that came from here
Personally, what did you think of The Dark Knight Rises? I liked it a lot. I don't know that it stands alone very well, but as a trilogy, Nolan's Batman movies are damn good.
Do you receive fan mails? what's the weirdest one? I don't get fan mail.
Has any of the film promoters ever tried to bribe you to review their movies? what's the weirdest one? No one's tried to bribe me, but we do get filmmakers challenging our interpretation of a review. When that happens, we'll check with the reviewer to make sure it's right.
What about hate mails? I don't get hate mail, but I do get nasty comments on YouTube.
Hello. What is your favourite movie that has a 'rotten' rating? Probably the first thing to come to mind would the The Fast and the Furious franchise.
I feel that the neutral comments really get me. For example, one of the reviews will be bad and i read it, and sometimes I feel like its a good review and shouldn't be a rotten tomato. Is there a system to determine if some of the neutral comments are rotten or not? It throws me off sometimes. The neutral ones can be really hard to interpret sometimes. Sometimes three or four of us will read the same review to try and find a line that really defines where the critic stands. If we really can't figure it out, we'll ask the critic directly. That comes up a lot with Hollywood Reporter and Variety, where some of the reviews are as much about the box office potential as they are about the quality.
Have you ever eaten rotten tomatoes? Not knowingly. I have been known to drink milk the day after it expires though.
Thank you for doing this AMA. Welcome! Do you consider yourself to be movie-savvy? What was your occupation before this? Do you know of some amazing movies that have gotten little to no attention? If so, can you name a few? (Sorry to ask so many.. pick and choose if you wish!) :D. I like to think I'm relatively movie-savvy, but there are plenty of people who know more about the art and the business of movies than I do.
Before I was at RT, I had an online music business that failed (which is why I got back into web-based entertainment journalism) and before that I was at Yahoo Movies. I've been covering entertainment on the web off and on for about 15 years. I started out as a Universal Studios Tour Guide and I think I've taken that training to it's ridiculous extreme.
One movie I really tried to talk up last year was Warrior, and I was really happy to see Nolte get an Oscar nomination. He had a scene in that movie that had me in tears.
Hey Matt, what would you say is your favorite ultra-cheesy movie to watch for laughs (Something along the lines of The Day After Tomorrow or The Core). My favorite genre of movie is probably sci-fi or action/adventure. And I love a good martial arts movie.
What is your favorite genre of movie? I just re-watched The Rock on cable the other day - does that count as cheesy? Loved it.
What was it like in the beginning of your business? Rotten Tomatoes began as a side project for a few employees at a company called Design Reactor in Emeryville, CA. This allowed them to fully develop and take risks with the RT concept. Once it became clear this was going to be huge, the site branched off onto its own.
Was it hard, did people have doubts? You can see some of the stories about the early days of the site here
Have you ever spoke to an ActoActress who have had a joke or discussion with their film's ratings with you? A lot. One of the coolest things about working at Rotten Tomatoes is that almost everyone in the film industry seems to know who we are and they use the site. I interviewed James Remar a couple of weeks back and he joked about how many bad movies he had on our site.
My favorite was probably interviewing the Broken Lizard guys. I love Super Troopers, and they all said to us "we love you guys, but you HATE us."
Is there any movie with a 0% critic and 100% user or the other way around? I don't think there is that large of a difference, but there are some with a difference of 40-50%. But I think comparing critics scores to user scores is an apples/oranges comparison. Users mostly choose movies they think they'll like, and they're usually right, so most users scores come from a self-selecting pool of people biased towards liking the film. I'm painting in broad strokes here, but the I think the numbers are kind of a false comparison.
can you bring him back? Please, oh, please, will you let him on the site again? Armond has the ability to post on the site if he wants to.
How do you feel about critics who slam overwhelmingly acclaimed movies, such as Toy Story 3 and E.T.? If someone can legitimately back up their criticism, that's their right. We don't expect everyone to agree.
What is your opinion on critics writing a negative review to gain traffic to their personal website? Regarding writing reviews to get traffic, if someone's flagrantly doing that, we try and address it. But it's slippery slope - we're not trying to enforce some kind of group think, and if someone can legitimately argue against the popular opinion, that's their right.
Did you ever want to be a filmmaker growing up (or still want to)? I wanted to be in movies, not really direct them or produce them. And then I realized I'd rather watch movies than make them.
What is your opinion on the future of movie distribution as a whole? Will the days of $15 movie tickets and $8 popcorn go the way of Betamax tapes? Or do you feel that there is something stronger in a community experience (actually sharing the moment with a crowd of strangers, much like a concert) that a home theatre can't convey? I'm not sure what the future holds for movie distribution, but I think we're going to see fewer story concepts get distributed in a theatrical experience as the years go by. But I don't know that it's going to be a sudden tipping point, so much as it will be a slow erosion. I think we're going to end up in a place where most movies are released "day-and-date" - all countries across all media (theaters, TV, internet) at the same time, and movie theaters will be a specialized event experience, like going to a ball game, instead of staying home and watching it on TV.
Would you be willing to become a regular contributor on the Adam Carolla podcast, like David Wild from Rolling Stone has? I would love a weekly segment discussing the crap coming out at the theaters. We're working on that, but Adam's schedule gets really full really quickly (or so they tell me).
How did you come up with the idea for the site's rating system? That was created by the founders of the site (not me), but my understanding is that 60% works as a pretty clear supermajority.
Thanks for doing this. I love RT! What's the process of deciding which reviewers should be listed/counted towards the Tomatometer like? Additionally, what are the qualifications needed for one of them to be a "top critic" on there? I just posted about this, but we have our criteria here
One of the things that really stand out to me on the website is the user comments on the professional reviews. I think there is a very clear hivemind mentality among the user comments that is really disturbing - there are SO many hostile comments towards negative reviews for those "good" films and then so many patronizing comments towards positive reviews for "bad" films. How would you go about regulating these comments and improving discussion of these professional reviews? Yeah, we're planning to move away from having individual comment threads linked to specific reviews, because I think that helps focus the dogpile that happens when someone goes against the majority. We'll have one thread for each movie that will be easier to police.
Hi Matt! I'm an accredited film critic (not listed on RT yet, though). I love your site, but there are limits in the RT system because of review nuance. Would you ever consider putting the option on RT where a user could see a page based on ratings (ie 3 stars our of 4), not the fresh/rotten binary? We've thought about doing something like that, but we suffer from a severe lack of development resources, and it's hard make the case for that level of expense (developer time=money) when other parts of the larger corporate organization have other priorities.
P.S. - I was the longest intern the Rotten Tomatoes show had. I enjoyed my time thoroughly and look fondly back on the company as a whole. If there are any ever positions open, you can be your bottom dollar I'll be applying! Anyway, that was a decision by the producers, and we didn't have much input on it. But my take is that since Rotten Tomatoes is about critics' reviews, I feel like having professionals was closer to the spirit of the site.
I love you on the Adam Carolla podcast when you come on. Do you think anyone has the balls to tell him that movie was not that good? I love me some Ace, but that movie was not that good. Have you seen it? I actually think it's a decent little movie. It's not high art, but it's better than I would have expected out of him.
What RT score do you think this AMA would get? Up votes are only at 56%, so I guess that means my own AMA is rotten. (insert sad trombone sound here)
If this AMA results in the removal of this popup then I will go to sleep tonight knowing we did something good for the world. The product team is telling me this is going to be addressed. It probably won't go away completely, but it should show up less.
Is there any chance of the search/sort feature becoming more specific. For example it would be neat if I could search for something like "Highest rated comedies in the last 5 years with more than 50 reviews" or something to that effect. That's a long shot. Our development team is handling a lot of different priorities right now, and although those sorts of improvements are on a "to do" list, it's a really, really long list.
Describe your typical day. The days vary over the course of the week, because we see most of the reviews come in on Thursdays and Fridays. Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays will be a lot of time planning coverage for the coming weeks, and then going to screenings in the evenings. On Thursdays I do a bunch of radio press appearances, my team is amassing reviews, shoot What the Flick, and then we have Rotten Tomatoes Radio. Fridays have more reviews, more press, and then eventually I go home.
Last updated: 2012-09-10 02:50 UTC
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